Sunset clouds, Tenaya Lake, Yosemite NP, CA, USA
Back in June I wrote about Adobe’s new subscription-only model for licensing Photoshop, called the Creative Cloud. Let’s just say that I wasn’t happy about it. But recently, as I’m sure many of you know, Adobe announced a new Photoshop Photography Program. For $9.99 per month you can get both Photoshop CC (Creative Cloud) and Lightroom, and it’s not an introductory price that will go up after a year. That doesn’t mean that it will never go up, but Adobe says that they don’t have any plans to increase the price at this time. (The offer is only available to people who currently own Photoshop CS3 or later, and it expires on December 31st.)
I have to say that this is a more attractive offer. $9.99 per month comes out to less than I’ve been paying for upgrades to both Lightroom and Photoshop. Of course I already own a license to Lightroom 5, so in the short term I’d really be paying just for Photoshop CC. But at least the price wouldn’t automatically go up after a year, and when Lightroom 6 comes out I’d get it for no extra charge.
Unfortunately this program won’t help you if you don’t already own Photoshop CS3 or later. It’s possible that Adobe might offer a version of this package (probably a more expensive version), to people who don’t already own Photoshop, but there’s no word of that yet. You can still buy Photoshop CS6 from places like Amazon and B&H, and that would then qualify you to get this Photoshop/Lightroom bundle, but that’s an expensive way to go, since CS6 is going for more than $600.
And either way this is still a rental program, not a perpetual license—at least for Photoshop. Tim Grey said in his newsletter that this program includes a perpetual license for Lightroom: “With the new subscription offering you would still be licensing Photoshop with the subscription approach, where if you stop paying for the subscription you lose access to Photoshop. However, at least for now, Lightroom is included with this bundle on a perpetual license. In other words, if you discontinue your subscription to this new bundle, you won’t lose access to Lightroom, and thus you won’t lose access to your Lightroom catalog.”
Unfortunately I haven’t been able to find anything on Adobe’s web site that confirms this statement. I did get a confirmation from an Adobe sales agent in an online chat, but he wasn’t able to point me to a written confirmation. And then I talked to a different Adobe sales agent on the phone, and he told me the opposite—that you wouldn’t get a perpetual license to Lightroom with this package, and if you stopped subscribing you wouldn’t be able to use Lightroom! I consider Tim Grey to be a reliable source about things like this, so I’m inclined to believe he’s right, and the Adobe sales agent I talked to on the phone is wrong (it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve talked to a mis-informed sales agent or tech person at a big corporation). But it would be nice to get some confirmation! If anyone has seen something in writing from Adobe about this, I’d appreciate you letting me know where to find it.
So again, I think this Photoshop Photography Program is a more attractive offer, though you’re still renting Photoshop without a perpetual license. I’m still mulling this over. But what do you think? Has the new Photoshop Photography Program changed your mind about subscribing to the Creative Cloud?
— Michael Frye
P.S. While we’re talking about the controversial Creative Cloud, I’d like to clarify a persistent misunderstanding. Perhaps “cloud” was a poor naming choice for Adobe, because it has made a lot of people assume that the software and your image files will reside in the cloud. They don’t. When you use Photoshop CC, both the software and your image files reside on your own hard drive. Every month or so when you launch Photoshop CC (or any Creative Cloud application) it will check to make sure that your subscription is up to date, and you’ll also need an internet connection to download updates, but the software and your image files reside on your hard drive, and you can launch Photoshop and use it without an internet connection.
Related Posts: Thoughts on the Adobe Creative Cloud
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Michael Frye is a professional photographer specializing in landscapes and nature. He is the author or principal photographer of The Photographer’s Guide to Yosemite, Yosemite Meditations, Yosemite Meditations for Women, and Digital Landscape Photography: In the Footsteps of Ansel Adams and the Great Masters. He has also written three eBooks: Light & Land: Landscapes in the Digital Darkroom, Exposure for Outdoor Photography, and Landscapes in Lightroom 5: The Essential Step-by-Step Guide. Michael written numerous magazine articles on the art and technique of photography, and his images have been published in over thirty countries around the world. Michael has lived either in or near Yosemite National Park since 1983, currently residing just outside the park in Mariposa, California.
Hi Michael – I’m in a similar situation, already owning LR5 and CS6. I started with a trial of Photoshop CC once this “Photographers Package” was announced, and most likely will join when the trial expires.
I am very concerned about what will happen if I need to end the subscription sometime in the future (I will lose access to any edits I’ve made during the subscription period). But I won’t lose my source raw files, so worst case I’d just have to re-do any important edits. It would be costly in terms of time if I need any of the previous edits, but it’s a risk I feel I need to take.
Staying on CS6 would eventually leave us in the dust as Adobe continues to update CC with new features (by way of comparison, I think back to what’s changed in CS just over the past few years). The way Adobe has set this up, the only way we can stay with the current technology is to pay the rental fee.
There are other options but no real direct competitors from what I can see.
One thing that concerns me is that the $9.95 Photographer option has wording in the agreement that says it will renew after one year “at the then current price”. Regardless of what anyone says now in marketing schpeal, they could price it however they want at that point. What the “then current” price will be is anyone’s guess since this package expires this December.
Bill, thanks for sharing your thoughts here. When you say you’ll lose access to any edits you’ve made during the subscription period, I’m not sure that’s true. It depends on what kind of edits you’ve made, and how you work. If you use Adjustment Layers and Smart Objects in your Photoshop files (which has always been what I’ve recommended because it gives you the most flexibility to modify your files in the future), and IF those Adjustment Layers or Smart Objects include adjustments made with features that CS6 doesn’t have, then you may encounter a problem when you try to open the file with CS6. It’s likely that you’ll still be able to open the file, but those adjustments made with post-CS6 features either won’t be editable, or they won’t appear at all — it’ll be as if you’d never made them. But at least you wouldn’t have to start over.
It’s possible that with the passage of enough time you wouldn’t be able to even open the files made with the future edition of Photoshop CC with CS6, but even then, if the Photoshop files are in Lightroom, you should at least be able to export those files as TIFFs or JPEGs from Lightroom, since Lightroom reads a flattened version of the Photoshop files that’s embedded with the layered version. To be really safe you could save flattened versions of all the Photoshop files you make. You wouldn’t have much flexibility in editing those, but if you don’t need to change the appearance you’d still be able to use those files.
Michael, you’re right – in my attempt to keep my reply from being too wordy, I over-simplified the situation. The backwards-compatibility issue may not be as dire as it seems on the surface. Though as you pointed out, it’s unlikely that one could edit an image previously edited with CC using CS6 or earlier.
I performed a little test tonight to get a sense for how it might play out. I edited a D5100 NEF file in Photoshop CC 14. I applied a Levels adjustment layer, then combined the Levels layer & the base layer into a Smart Object. I then applied the new Anti Shake filter, followed by a Smart Sharpen filter, and saved the result as a PSD file.
I then closed Photoshop CC and opened the PSD file in Photoshop CS6. It opened fine, and it even displayed the adjusted image (including the effects of the anti-shake filter). The display for the anti-shake adjustment filter had a little warning sign next to it. And as you’d expect I couldn’t open it for further adjustment (CS6 was probably, like, “huh?, what’s this”). I was able to toggle the adjustment off, and the effect disappeared from the image. Interestingly, when I toggled it back on, the effect was not rendered (again, not surprisingly).
I would not go so far as to say all future new CC features will work the same way when opened in a prior version, especially back to CS6 or earlier. IMO the results are unpredictable.
But at least at this stage, with this particular new feature, the results are (as you suggested) that you can open the file, and “use” it, but no further manipulation of that feature is possible.
Bill, thanks for doing that test — you saved me the trouble! (And I don’t have Photoshop CC, so couldn’t really do it anyway. :)) But thanks for confirming what I suspected. As you say, the results will be unpredictable. I don’t like unpredictable when it comes to this stuff!
I also have CS6 and LR5 and wasn’t considering joining CC. This new Lightroom and Photoshop Package is interesting though. I also called Adobe and got close to the same answers you did except the agent I talked to said if you stopped the subscription you would still have access to LR. There have been conflicting reports about that. I asked if I would be able to go back to using my current CS6. He wasn’t sure about that. The problem being that software downloads aren’t like they once were where you downloaded the software and set it up completely from that download. Now you download a file that connects you to the Adobe where the rest of the files are then downloaded. Adobe could stop supporting that procedure with Photoshop at any time although probably not right away. So, I am waiting to see if more information is forthcoming from Adobe before I sign up for this offer. Some things in the CC version of Photoshop look interesting and are not available as an upgrade to CS6 so right now my leaning is toward signing up for the LR and PS package.
Allen, see the link that Alan Smallbone posted below. This is the only thing I’ve seen in writing from someone at Adobe, and it says that you don’t get a perpetual license to Lightroom with the new Photoshop Photography Package. Obviously there’s a lot of conflicting information here, but for the time being I wouldn’t assume that this package includes a perpetual license to Lightroom.
Hi Michael
I’m having this exact same internal debate. While the price isn’t too shabby at all there are really no guarantees of what will happen in the future. I am stuck exactly halfway on the fence on this one.
Also it’s worth noting that if you own any kind of volume license or educational version of Photoshop you don’t qualify for the $9.99 price tag. It’s easy enough to snag a copy of cs3 on ebay to counteract this, but it’s getting much more difficult to find a cheap one that comes with a license key that will qualify so everyone’s mileage may vary.
If I could completely change gears for a second, I really enjoyed the Landscapes in Lightroom 5 e-book. Your teaching style is excellent and the content is fantastic. The integrated videos were really helpful plus the bonus keyboard shortcut video changed my life! (Ok, so not really but close!)
If I could make a suggestion I think it would be helpful to see a video or two where you take an image from start to finish. I understand this would be time consuming but would make a great cap to the book and help put together the concepts learned. In fact the image you posted above (which is a beautiful reflection shot by the way) would be a great candidate since it’s applying the same concepts to a different image and deals with skies in a landscape image, which can be annoying to balance sometimes and easy to over-do. Just my 2 cents.
Thanks again Michael! I took a one day workshop with you a year ago february and still look back fondly on it. It was a great experience even though firefall was a little lackluster that year and it happened to be the day of the Yosemite Renaissance which was a great added bonus. (And for anyone else reading I was on the phone with my wife to say goodnight to the kids and Jeopardy gave a question about Yosemite. Which Michael got right! The guy’s a pro! 🙂 )
-John
John, I think we’re on the same fence. 🙂 But I’m glad you enjoyed the ebook, and thanks for the suggestion. And I’d forgotten about that Jeopardy question!
Yes, this is an attractive offer, price-wise, and my yea/nay leanings tend to depend on my mood at the moment. Since this offer is good till December 31, I may, or may not, take the plunge on New Years Eve. The biggest hurdle for me is still the perpetual license issue, with the attendant unknowns should I decide to withdraw in the future. But there is some cool stuff in CC that I could take advantage of. So, for now, I’m just glad that the fence I am sitting on is not a picket fence.
Marty, apparently you, me, and John are on that same fence. It’s not a picket fence, but it isn’t that comfy either. 🙂
Look at the third message in this thread, which is from an Adobe rep who is not in sales… and if you read through the whole thread, what you get is CC versions of both programs. Lightroom is not a perpetual licenses in this $10/month deal. If you quite paying they both stop working. You are then left with your last perpetual photoshop and last perpetual Lightroom, not the current one you downloaded from the CC.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=80687.102
Alan
Thanks for this link Alan. This does seem to indicate that you don’t get a perpetual license to Lightroom with the Photoshop Photography Package. I’m going to try to investigate further, but for now I’ll assume that’s the way it is.
Michael, I too am on the fence. I have LR4 & CS5. So far I have not seen anything compelling in LR5 & CS6 to get me to pony up the money. But this program looks like it is worth it. I am less concerned with the price going up later in time than others here. It is clear that Adobe is going to CC and never going back. I recently heard they went over 1 million subscribers. That a LOT of monthly cash flow.
If you are making a living using this software (a paid professional photographer) then it is a no-brainer. It is the cost of doing business.
I am just a hobbyist. Money is tight, and I really can’t afford an extra $10 a month right now. If I do tighten the belt to squeeze this into my budget… and my finances take a turn for the worse, requiring me to stop… then I am out of luck. I have to buy back in at $20 month when I can afford it again. That sucks, and so far is the reason I have not already joined CC.
Lightroom is the bigger problem. If you have to go back to your previous perpetual version (LR4 for me) and the catalog is different. Then I loose everything, and essentially have to start over rebuilding my catalog in LR4. So maybe I should stay in LR4.
I want to join CC, and feel $10.month is a fair price. But I worry about having to pay… forever. I can also see staying with LR4 & CS5 for a long time, too. HELP!!!
Welcome to the fence. There seem to be a lot of us on it, but luckily there’s plenty of room. 🙂
You’re right in saying that Lightroom is a bigger problem. If you stop your subscription, there should still be some backwards compatibility with earlier versions of Photoshop, but the same is not true of Lightroom. There’s no backwards compatibility with earlier versions of a Lightroom catalog, so that still-unclear issue of whether this new package includes a perpetual license to Lightroom is an important one.
Hi Michael,
I’m about to join the cloud. But what is going to happen with my pluck ins from PS4? And my Lightroom settings?
I’d love to get your advise.
Thanks so much
Brigitte
Brigitte, I’m not sure about your CS4 plugins. You may have to upgrade some of them, which could cost money. But my guess is that most of them should still work with Photoshop CC. You might have to move them (or copy them) from the CS4 plugins folder to the CC plugins folder.
Lightroom settings shouldn’t be a problem. I’m assuming you have Lightroom 4 or earlier. If that’s the case then when you launch Lightroom 5 for the first time it will ask you if you want to upgrade a previous catalog. Say yes, and, if necessary, and tell it which catalog to upgrade (the one you’ve been using with your previous version of Lightroom). After it’s done upgrading the catalog, which will take a few minutes, you’ll see all your settings in the new catalog, and everything should be just as you left it in the old catalog.
Thanks so much for your response Michael. I was referring to the the Color and Silver Efex Pro plug ins. Do you think it will be possible to copy them? Well, I’ll give it a try and I’ll let you know.
Have a nice day! (already night here in Spain)
Brigitte
I have Google’s Nik software suite and they all work fine. More info here,
https://support.google.com/nikcollection/answer/3212033?hl=en&ref_topic=3000839
Thanks for that link David — that’s helpful.
I signed up for the special 9.99 Photoshop and Lightroom CC deal. When it downloaded to my computer it did not attach to my copy of CS5 so assume I will always have my own license separate from the CC version. I was on 30 day trial of LR which was just about to run out which would have cost me 149.00 to keep so feel that the CC combination was a good deal for me. Plus my annual upgrade for PS was coming up in December which would have been more money out of pocket. I don’t worry about “having to pay forever” as a previous respondent stated because you will pay forever as long as you want to use a current version of PS whether you pay monthly or upgrade annually. I think people just over analyze too much. So that is my take for what it is worth. And one more thing- for whatever reason seems that the CC version runs better on my computer than my own copy.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this Yvonne. Yes, you will always have your own license to CS5, and can always go back to that if you like. Your point that you have to pay forever anyway to use a current version of Photoshop is well taken. I think what bothers people is that they have less choice. Under the old model you could opt out of getting the latest version and still retain access to the software you’ve already purchased. Not so with the new subscription model.
> I don’t worry about “having to pay forever” as a previous respondent stated
> because you will pay forever as long as you want to use a current version of PS
> whether you pay monthly or upgrade annually.
Emphasis on ‘use a current version’.
Businesses don’t need to worry about that; if they can’t afford the monthly fee, their business has bigger problems.
Photographers dealing only with time-limited imagery don’t need to worry about it; they won’t be retrieving files old enough for this to matter.
But consider an amateur photographer. If their personal finances tank, or even if they retire and can’t spare the monthly fee, the only images they can continue to work on are those which do not contain any new adjustment layers, any new smart objects, or any new ‘whatevers’. Which argues that they’re better off–for safety purposes–to not use the new features, which carries the logical extension of not paying for it either.
I am planning on signing up for the Photoshop package in December, but have started looking at alternatives to Ps, and am deliberately going to avoid any new persistent features (e.g. new adj. layers) in Ps CC that aren’t in CS6, my ‘persistent license’ version. (Anyone know of a good package that supports RGB, CMYK, and LAB? HSB/HSL a plus.) I’d much rather stick with Ps, as I’ve been using it for 23 years and understand how it thinks, but the subscription-ONLY model is a problem for me–even though it may well be cheaper *when staying current*.
Thanks for the thoughtful comments Kevin. As you point out, you can avoid using new features in Photoshop CC, but then what’s the point of having it? I suppose you can rasterize them; in other words, any time you use a tool that’s in Photoshop CC but you know isn’t in CS6, rasterize that layer when you’re happy with how it looks, so you turn it into a regular pixel layer that can be read by any version of Photoshop. You could even have rasterized and un-rasterized layers with the same adjustment, with one layer turned off, as a future safety measure. But that would get awfully complicated.
Still not enough information to make a decision. There are so many variables that one could easily get bitten in the ass if having to withdraw for any reason in the future. Then there’s the expiration of the “deal” after one year, when one is then at the mercy of the Adobe profit glutton machine. Still on the fence and hoping for more complete information forthcoming – not necessarily from you Michael, but the community at large.
Paul, welcome to the fence! There’s quite a crowd here. The only new information we’re likely to get any time soon is a clarification of whether this new Lightroom-and-Photoshop bundle includes a perpetual license to Lightroom. It seems it doesn’t, according to the link that Alan provided above. But I’m still not completely sure.
I’m still very uneasy about this whole thing.
On one hand, a price of $9.95/month for Lightroom and Photoshop is appealing on the cost basis. While I was unwilling up to upgrade to the “creative cloud” (more on that in a moment) version of Photoshop under the original pricing on the cost basis alone, my resistance has softened with the more reasonable pricing model. (By the way, I’m not one of those folks who thinks that Photoshop isn’t worth it. It plays a far more central role in my overall photography than, say, any individual lens – and the lenses generally cost more.)
On the other hand, the “software rental” model (which is how I regard it) presents some serious and troubling concerns. While such a model is sometimes used for institutional level software licenses (where it makes sense), bringing it to the consumer software market is a novel and unique idea. I’m not pleased to consider the possibility that future access to my creative work may depend on paying an ongoing ransom, uh, I mean fee to Adobe every month.
I am also not buying the marketing-speak that suggests that this is somehow advantageous to users. As far as I can tell, the only beneficiary here is Adobe. For example, when users “purchase” the application (and I’ll use the term “purchase” fully aware of the legal distinction between that term and the current prior licensing agreement), they are free to use it for as long as they wish. The choice to continue with an existing version or upgrade is theirs alone. Adobe recognizes, as do all software companies, that in order to sustain their market they must update and improve their products or at least convince users that newer versions offer sufficient improvements to warrant purchasing an upgrade. This alone is enough to force a company like Adobe to continually work to improve and advance their products.
However, once everyone is on the software rental plan, the need for Adobe to update or even maintain their software diminishes a great deal. Whether or not they improve the product, you’ll have to keep renting it in order to simply access your files. The end result is very unfavorable to consumers and it will tend to reduce the need for Adobe to upgrade and improve their products.
I’m still holding off on any upgrades…
Dan
(The “cloud” naming of the product is essentially meaningless, and we should all point this out explicitly. It is entirely a marketing choice to use the current and popular term “cloud” in the name. Looked at objectively, there is very little cloud-like about this product that differentiates it from the previous version.)
Dan, I’m uneasy about the whole thing too. Yes, this new price is attractive, but I have the same reservations as you. And thanks for reinforcing what I said about the “cloud” name. I actually think this was a marketing mistake by Adobe, as it’s led some people to believe that the software and (even worse) their image files would have to reside in the cloud, which is a scary prospect, but not a real one at this point.
Dan, thanks for drawing out the hidden bits that were making me uneasy while simultaneously not really knowing what was making me feel uneasy… if that makes any sense at all. Your logic seams sound and its certainly enough to keep me on this side of the fence for the time being. I better upgrade to a perpetual LR5 license while I still have a chance.
Hi, Michael:
To provide a different perspective, I made the jump almost right away. The transition was seamless and hopefully things will continue to go smoothly. I haven’t had time to check with Adobe yet to see if I jumped to early to qualify for the inclusion of LR. But it won’t matter to me, mainly because I don’t make much use of that software. The bottom line for me comes by running the numbers. When I calculate the Photoshop percentage of my total photography expenses, it really isn’t a significant amount.
On another tack, thanks again for the Star Trails adventure in September. Despite the adverse conditions, I’m pleased with the results. Things have been busy here, but I hope to take advantage of your latest Vimeo tutorial very soon.
Regards,
Robin
Thanks Robin. If you have a license to Photoshop CS3 or later, you qualify for the new Lightroom/Photoshop package. I’ve heard that people who already signed up for Photoshop CC can call Adobe and get shifted into the new Photoshop Photography Package if they have that qualifying previous version of Photoshop.
I’m glad you enjoyed the workshop, and got some good images from it. The smoke did make it challenging, but luckily everything worked out in the end! It was great seeing you again and having you with us.
Hello Michael,
I have been watching Adobe’s subscription model with mild interest since it was announced, but never intended to jump on the “rental wagon.” However, when Adobe went public with this new program it piqued my interest in a more serious way. I figure it this way: since I typically upgraded both LR and Photoshop with each new release (there was ALWAYS something new in there that I couldn’t live without!), it cost me about $240 every 12-18 months; and that’s with my NAPP discount. Toss in another $99 per year for the NAPP membership and, well…you get the idea! This new program cost me $120 per year and I have access to all the latest LR and PS have to offer! Heck, I spend more than 10 bucks a month at Starbucks!! 🙂
Thanks Alan, and I agree that the price of this new package is attractive. It’s just the software rental model that still makes me hesitate.
I held off upgrading to LR5 and CS6 as I wanted to keep my options open. At first I was not too happy about the subscription program. It was far too expensive for me as a hobby photographer but the new package offer for ‘Photographers’ I think is a terrific deal and very good value. It shows that Adobe have listened to their individual customers and have offered a product that non professionals can continue to use at an affordable price.
I have joined the Adobe subscription plan for photographers and my thoughts are that it will continue to be affordable. Prices will inevitably increase but I don’t think there will be a shock after the first 12 months. Adobe will welcome the extra income from individuals and it will be in their interest to keep our custom. As a LR4 and CS5 user I have saved huge upgrade prices, (approx £250) and now pay a small monthly fee for the latest software. £8.78 including tax here in the UK. For me that is a lot easier to digest than an expensive upgrade every 18 months or so.
David, I think you’re right that there won’t be some huge price increase for the Photoshop Photography Package after a year. I suspect that they’ll keep it at $9.99 (USD) for a while, then make a modest increase. The price with this package is good; as I said to Alan above, it’s the software-rental model that makes me hesitate.
I use LR and CS6 on my desktop and on my laptop. Do you or anyone else know if that’s still permitted by Adobe under CC? I suppose the answer to that could sway me.
Will, I’m pretty sure you can use Photoshop CC on more than one device, though I’m not positive.
Will & Michael,
I had the same question and found the following answer on a Adobe Forum:
“Correct
Jan 7, 2013 6:24 AM
You may install software on up to two computers. These two computers can be Windows, Mac OS, or one each.
If you install on a third computer, it will request you to de-activate on the other two computers. You can then reactivate one of the previous two computers, and use Creative Cloud apps on it.
If you regularly need to use the Creative Cloud on more than two computers then it would be best to purchase an additional subscription. This is the same licensing btw which we have for our prepetual product. An advantage though for Creative Cloud over the prepetural product is that you can install on Mac and Windows with the same subscription!”
Link to the whole thread: http://forums.adobe.com/thread/998899
Hope that helps
Susanne
Hi Susanne,
one of the reasons I quickly jumped over the fence was, that I can run CC and Lightroom5 at my MAC OS at home and on my computer(Windows) at the University. Now I can edit photos whenever I have time between my classes.
Best wishes
Brigitte
My understanding is that you can use it on two devices and one can be a Mac and the other a PC. For those of us who don’t have both platforms, that’s a big deal. Before we had to buy a separate copy for each.
Thanks! (And thanks for diving into the Forum)
Well I crossed the fence. I knew (I rather thought) I had to upgrade from fossil LR 2 and PS4 one day, even if they felt like a comfortable old jersey you wear at home. Found all my LR settings!!! Upgraded my Efex plug-ins also, purchased and didn’t get a serial number, so I can’t open them, I think it’s a minor flaw….so I’ll leave it for tomorrow. The step from PS4 to CC is confusing to me, but I’ll get use to it. Miss the “fill in light” tool in LR, it was very handy. I don’t see any advantage so far in this upgrade? and I hope that after a good night sleep I’ll see clearer tomorrow.
Thanks for all your support!
Brigitte
Hello Brigitte,
I really think that once all the dust settles and you get your plug-ins working, again, and you’ve had a chance to work with PS CC and LR5 you’ll find these latest versions lightyears beyond your older copies. IMO, for example, the controls within the Basic panel of LR5 are much more sophisticated than “fill light” in older versions of LR/ACR.
Good luck! And, welcome to the “dark” side…
Regards,
AlanH
Brigitte, I agree with AlanH about that. The equivalent of using the Fill Light tool in Lightroom 2 is pushing Shadows to the right in Lightroom 4 or 5, but I think Shadows is more natural looking. And Highlights in Lightroom 4 and 5 is much better than Recovery in Lightroom 3 and earlier. If you want a better understanding of how the new tools work in Lightroom you can check out these videos (they’re free):
https://www.michaelfrye.com/2012/04/13/lightroom-4-the-new-tone-controls/
https://www.michaelfrye.com/2012/04/20/lightroom-4-working-with-the-new-process/
And, of course, there’s my new ebook, Landscapes in Lightroom 5.
Hi Michael,
Thanks for that. Your tutorials are really a great help and I can see already clearer. CC is quite a bit different from PS4, but it’s no more than a question to get familiar with it. I also need to change my workflow, because my upgraded Nik software plugins are only compatible in Lightroom 5, and not in CC.
I’m not worried about buying or renting. Renting is far more comfortable for my monthly budged, all Adobe products are much expensive here in Spain, what prevented my from upgrading in the past and kept me lightyears beyond!!! Well, I still shoot with my old Canon cameras 5D and 50 D and prefer to be outside with my camera instead of worrying too much about what will happen with Photoshop. I’m glad you guys are doing that for me!
I suppose the trend is going more and more to get products on a rental base, think website providers, you don’t buy a website, you rend it for a certain amount of time, paying on a monthly or annual base.
As I’m not a studio photographer. I do most of my editing in Lightroom and I’m happy with Nik software. They are doing a great job with Color and Silver Efex plug ins.
Nevertheless I find this discussion interesting, maybe I jumped to early over the fence, who knows? But I am happy to pay about 12€ monthly rates rather than hundreds of Euros at one go to upgrade to Lightroom5 and PS6.
Thanks again for your help Michael. And now I’m going to order your book!
Kind regards from Mallorca
Brigitte
Glad you found that helpful Brigitte.
Hi Alan,
Thanks for your kind words. I can see so much clearer today, and you are right, the controls on the Basic panel are easy and nice tools. My plug-ins work well in LR5, my workflow still needs some tweaking….. Beautiful afternoon light here, and I’ll grab my camera and go out.
Best wishes from Mallorca
Brigitte
Hello Brigitte,
LOL…beautiful afternoon light would certainly cause me to run out the door and not worry about software! 🙂 Btw, I think it was in your reply to Michael above where you questioned if Nik plugins worked in PS CC. The Nik Collection works just fine…I use it nearly every day. FWIW…
Best regards,
AlanH
Well, I just love to be outside with my camera. Autumn is very beautiful here on the island.
It was about time to upgrade, because I was pottering around quite too long in my comfort zone with LR2 and PS4. Add a fossil Canon 5D and D50, and you know what I mean. But as I love my fossils and can’t effort a new camera I decided to give CC a try. Unfortunately I only can use my Nik Software plugins in LR5 ( I was used to have them in PS4) So I have to get use to a different workflow. Any suggestion will be very much appreciated.
Kind regards
Brigitte
Hi Allen,
just a question. You mentioned that the Nik collection works well in PS CC. How did you manage it? When I installed it, CC was not mentioned in the window that opens to ask you where you want to install it, it was only PS 4 and LR 5. That’s why I installed it in LR5. I would rather prefer to open it in CC, because it’s more handy and it was my workflow until I got CC. I’d be glad to get your advice.
Best wishes
Brigitte
Hello Brigitte,
Hmm, something here isn’t right…obviously! 🙂 You do have PS CC installed on your computer, correct? Are you running 64-bit? I’m not sure, but the Nik Collection (by Google) may be 64-bit only.
My platform is Windows 7 64-bit; I downloaded the collection and installed it without issue. I remember having a problem with one of my plugin packages, but that “issue” was simply user error. When the list popped up, I simply selected the wrong software to install into. Note to self…uninstall some crap! 🙂
Beyond that I’m not sure what more to say. Even though I do use LR5 I still go to PS for all final post-processing. I hardly ever run plugins out of LR because I don’t like the “one off” nature of doing things that way. I know, I know…plugin makers such as Topaz and OnOne both have a central hub concept which allows the execution of any of their plugins, but I still don’t like it. YMMV of course.
Good luck! Let me know if I can do anything more to help.
Best regards,
AlanH
Alan, thanks for helping Brigitte with this. Brigitte, if you can’t figure it out you can always try contacting Nik’s customer support.
I’ll figure it out. Thanks so much for your kind response and advise, Michael and Alan.
In the Host Application window there is a little plus sign (+) when installing the Google Nik Collection. Click on that and navigate to your C:Program FilesAdobePhotoshop CCPlug-Ins to install.
Photoshop CC does not show up by default in the Host Application window as LR5 does. This is a manual install while Google work on updating the compatibility with Photoshop CC.
Here is the link once more with detailed instructions,
https://support.google.com/nikcollection/answer/3212033?hl=en&ref_topic=3000839
Hi Michael, Well make a bit more room on the fence please! I mimic the concerns of many that have posted before me. Putting the money issue aside, my main issue is that I want to OWN the software that I use. I’m very uncomfortable with the CC model and the unknown ” down the road “. I’m mainly a Lightroom user and use PP only occasionally. With not being able to really go back to the Lightroom version that I own and not loose a ton of work is a huge concern for me. That alone really keeps me from pulling the trigger. If I can continue to just pay for the Lightroom upgrades as they come along, my gut is pushing me in that direction. I’ll just use my version of CS6 when needed. I also kind of have the feeling that the updates may not be as important to Adobe now with the huge income stream.
I think Adobe has left a big hole for the competition to come in with similar products that will be available to purchase not rent. Not being super dependent on PP makes the decision different ( easier ) than for those truly needing PP. Some more clarity from Adobe would certainly help many make their decision. I think I will pass for now and stick with the non CC Lightroom and hope they continue to offer it that way for a long time to come.
I also want to say I really enjoyed the Starry Skies workshop. I learned a tremendous amount at the workshop and can’t wait to get out and do some more night photography. Take care and say hi to our model Claudia!
Hello Marc,
My thoughts, before the Photography program was announced, ran very similar to yours and I, too, had planned to use LR5 and CS6 for as long as possible. But, what swayed me to the subscription model–leaving cost aside for a moment–was that…eventually…CS6 will break; not a question of “if” but rather “when.” For several months–after Adobe announced they were moving to a subscription model, but before this new program was announced at Photoshop World–I entered into an odyssey to find a Photoshop replacement. My idea was to continue using LR5, since I owned a perpetual license for that software and to use ?? when I needed more sophisticated editing capability. Bottom line…I couldn’t find a suitable replacement! Plus, I found that I was just so comfortable with the PS editing paradigm having used PS for nearly 14 years. I made the jump…but I can certainly appreciate your hesitation.
Regards,
AlanH
Marc, there’s plenty of room on the fence for you, no problem! And I hope you’re right that Adobe has left room for some competition; it sure seems like they have.
I’m glad you enjoyed the workshop Marc. Me too, and it was great to see you and Lori again. Claudia says hi back!
You can put me squarely in the “wait and see crowd” of folks. The offer appears really attractive, and I have to say the price is very fair. The problem is that it doesn’t impact my situation at this time.
99% of my workflow is done in LR, with the other 1% running through LR-Enfuse. The LR percentage is so high because I don’t own PS, but do own LR4. The main reason for that was the cost of entry. $600 is a lot to spend on a program that might just collect digital dust after 8 months. The same is true for paying $20 under there old rental program price structure.
With the recent release of LR5 and this offer, I am holding out on upgrading to LR5 to see if they come up with an offer individuals who don’t own PS. That way some of the price to upgrade could effectively be put towards the rental.
That all said, there is no real reason they should offer the same price structure to folks who don’t own PS. But here’s to holding out hope for a couple of months to see if they do.
Brian, I suspect that Adobe will make a Photoshop/Lightroom subscription bundle available to people who don’t own Photoshop already, but the price will undoubtedly be higher.
I’ve thought about this more, and have read the many replies in this thread. I’m still concerned about what happens later if I “lose” Photoshop (have to terminate my rental), but I think it’s manageable – there could be work required if I need to re-edit any images that use the newer features, but at least so far that’s not a huge issue for me.
I am, however, very concerned about renting Lightroom. As has been pointed out, there isn’t likely to be a backwards path to convert a Lightroom CC database to a Lightroom CS format. Therefore if we migrate to LR CC, and need to stop renting it, we’ve lost everything we’ve ever done to our images in LR – all edits, all cataloging, everything. Or maybe there’s something I’m missing that we could do to salvage these edits, cataloging, etc for use in another program (or earlier version of LR)???
One thing that jumped out at me as I re-read some of the Adobe documents tonight is that they continuously refer to the Photographer Program has providing Photoshop CC and Lightroom 5. They don’t say Photoshop CC 14, they say Photoshop CC (the more generic name). But they refer explicitly to Lightroom 5, not “Lightroom”. I’m not sure what this means, but it jumps out at me as being significant.
BTW, the Photographer Program terms are here:http://www.adobe.com/store/en_us/popup/offer/ccm_photoshop_app_offer.html
Bill, I’ve seen those terms, which are maddeningly unspecific about what kind of license you’re getting with Lightroom. I’m not sure what it means when they refer to Lightroom 5 instead of just Lightroom.
As for backwards compatibility in Lightroom, I think that’s quite problematic. The catalog itself is not readable by older versions of Lightroom. If you save the metadata to .xmp (as I think you should), then an older version of Lightroom should be able to read that metadata and open the files, but it couldn’t read new features. So, for example, Lightroom 3 wouldn’t know what to do with the Basic Panel metadata from Lightroom 4 or 5. It might just set the Basic Panel to its defaults. The only other program that can read that Lightroom .xmp metadata is Camera Raw, but again, you’d have to have a version of Camera Raw that’s at least as current as the version of Lightroom used to make the edits and write the metadata. And that means having a current subscription to Photoshop CC.
So I think the issue of backwards compatibility is much more of a concern with Lightroom than even with Photoshop. I don’t think I would ever use a version of Lightroom that I didn’t “own” and have a perpetual license to use.
There’s nothing (so far) that forced CC customers to upgrade to the newer software versions. One could conceivably use Photoshop CC in conjunction with LR5 indefinitely (in the way I am now during the CC trial period). As new versions of the software are available in the CC installer, we can choose whether or not to install them.
But my concern is eventually this could be problematic since we shuttle images back and forth between the two. At the very least we’ll start hitting Camera Raw version warnings as ACR for CC advances but LR5 gets left in the dust. And before too long LR5 will seem pretty old in the tooth, at least for editing features. Look at the changes over the past few versions (significant improvements in the Clarity, Sharpening, and various editing tools). Maybe we could continue to use it just for cataloging?
Bill, you can certainly use Lightroom just for cataloging, but if the ACR/Lightroom engine changes, as it did with Lightroom 3 and 4, you’d still have compatibility issues between Lightroom and Photoshop.
Many photographers are writing about how now at $10 a month its a much more palatable deal. I am not falling for this bait. I also wonder how you changed your mind?
All the best,
Sergey
Sergey, I don’t remember saying I changed my mind. I said that this new offer is more attractive, but I haven’t subscribed yet, and I’m still on the fence — along with a lot of others who’ve made comments here!
Michael, what are you considering as alternatives? We can stay with LR5 and CS6 for “a while”, but eventually we’ll hit a wall. We’ll upgrade to a new OS on which the older software will have issues or just plain not run. We’ll upgrade cameras & won’t have raw support in the older Adobe software – so we’d at the very least need to start using some other raw processor. And as discussed above, staying with an aging version will mean we stop seeing new innovation. None of these are immediate concerns but eventually our hands will be forced (presumably at a higher price).
I’ve looked at Nik, and the toolset seems like it would be nice to have … as an adjunct to the Adobe software. Plus, it’s hard to believe Google will continue to offer and support standalone desktop software – it’s not their business. It seems the most likely course is the one we’ve already seen begin, where they incorporate Nik features into Google Plus. If we want to talk about “cloud”, *that* is cloud … the software and your images really do reside in the cloud (searchable and arguably “owned” by Google). One might argue that the days of stand-alone NIK software are dwindling.
I’ve also looked at OnOne – I tried PerfectPhoto 7, and watched their live demo of the upcoming version 8, and while interesting, it seems more like an adjunct than a replacement (it feels very watered down, and they are touting as “important new features” things that Adobe has been doing for quite a while (like content-aware touch-up).
Adobe has put a lot of resources into developing their “stuff” for a long time. I don’t see a direct competitor with an equivalent offering. Do you?
Bill, yes, eventually we’ll hit a wall with Lightroom 5 and CS6, but that will take awhile, and when that day comes I can make a decision then based on what’s available, rather than trying to speculate now about what the software landscape might be like in a few years. It will be interesting to see if Lightroom 6 is offered as a standalone, perpetual-license product, or whether it will be subscription only. I sure hope it’s the former.
For Lightroom, the best alternatives are probably Capture One and Aperture, or maybe Capture NX2 for Nikon users. Capture One and Capture NX2 don’t have the cataloging strength of Lightroom or Aperture. Aperture may actually be better at the editing, sorting, cataloging functions than Lightroom, and has some excellent processing tools that Lightroom lacks (like the ability to apply a curve to part of an image), but Lightroom has a better Raw-processing engine, and it’s Highlights and Shadows tools are better than anything else out there. I haven’t tried Capture One in awhile, so I need to take another look at it. I don’t own a Nikon, so can’t use or comment knowledgeably about Capture NX. I don’t see any cataloging and Raw-processing tools from Nik or OnOne. For Photoshop, the best alternative to Photoshop CC is Photoshop CS6.
Hello Sergey,
I had no intentions on moving to Creative Cloud until Adobe announced the 9.99/mo photographer’s plan. The main reason I went ahead and became a subscriber (before the 12/31 deadline) is because I had completed a fairly exhaustive search for a Photoshop replacement. I could not find a single one that met my needs. Additionally, after having used PS for nearly 14 years now I’m very comfortable working in that environment. I know…sounds like a bit of a cop out…but I really, REALLY don’t like spending time evaluating software!
Best regards,
AlanH
And… fresh off the press (well, for me anyway). Adobe to announce source code and customer data breach. Adobe says they will notify individual customers if their credit cars were stolen. This does include CC customers.
http://krebsonsecurity.com/2013/10/adobe-to-announce-source-code-customer-data-breach/
Stuff like this is getting VERY old!
Michael,
Lots of good comments have been submitted and there seems to be some good points on both sides of that fence on which many are sitting. As an amateur I would prefer to have a perpetual license to any software for which I pay. I currently use Ps CS5 and LR4 and they do well for me. (I also understand that Microsoft Office is going to a cloud but I hope they retain an “earth bound” version.)
Anyway, it is my opinion that your blog of a couple of months ago probably stirred the interest for Adobe to offer CC and LR without the other programs. Maybe this blog will have a similar effect for them to continue to offer non-cloud based versions of these popular programs. You and your followers do have an effect on this market. We can only hope…!
Jim
Ha, if only I had such power Jim! There have been a lot of blog posts and articles with unflattering things to say about the Creative Cloud, or at least unflattering things to say about no longer having an option to purchase most Adobe software with a perpetual license, and the price of their clouds offerings, so I think perhaps the collective weight of all those comments did influence Adobe’s move to offer this Photoshop Photography Program. But it wasn’t just me and my readers, trust me. 🙂
This is really “neither here nor their”, as I think the saying goes … but I think one option that could work for most people (and for Adobe) is if they had a “buy-out” option in the CC program. That is, at any point during your rental agreement, you could pay a lump sum to purchase the then-current version(s) and own that version for perpetuity. That lump sum should decrease over the life of the rental agreement. That way there’s an “out” that doesn’t end in “you can no longer access those edits you’ve made”, and it at least pays Adobe for the value of their software.
Bill, something like that would be great, and would alleviate much, if not all, of the concerns that I have (along with a lot of other people). I’m not sure if it works for Adobe though, as I think part of their strategy is to keep you locked in once you subscribe. Of course maybe they would get more subscribers if people knew that they’d get to keep the software after a certain point.
Michael, agreed, that is their strategy. But it’s not realistic. Nobody can commit to paying a rental fee for their rest of their life. Someone else pointed out that when the retire they probably can’t continue to pay. But they’ll probably still want to edit their photos…
(and, sorry, i don’t mean to sound argumentative about it) 🙂
No worries Bill – didn’t seem very argumentative to me. 🙂
I’ve been listening to the debate with a lot of interest, and I want to rephrase a comment I made to an earlier version of this topic. A lot of the concern seems to revolve around the issue of “perpetual licenses”, allowing us to continue to use software once we’ve purchased it.
The point I want to make is: there is effectively no such thing as “perpetual” software. I think that, whether we like it or not, we’re now part of the computer industry, not the photography industry we remember. Nothing in the computer industry lasts. Whether it’s three or five years, whatever you have starts to become unusable or unacceptably limited. Well within ten years, it’s only useful as a door stop. (This, by the way, is why so many companies now lease their computers).
Consider the changes in just the last three years or so: raw file sizes have mushroomed, memory requirements for software have grown to where 16GB is barely adequate, and a 1TB disk is too small. An 8MP full frame camera is considered “quaint”.
So what really is the value of a “perpetual” license”?
Eric, you make a good point. We can’t continue to use software forever, no matter whether we get a perpetual license or not. (Well, there are some people who run old computers with old software for long periods of time, but most of us want to keep our hardware and software more current.) But there is a difference between having your software get gradually outdated over the course of several years, versus instantly losing access to it if you stop subscribing to the Creative Cloud. Under the old model, with perpetual licenses and the option to skip upgrades, people had more choices about when, if, and how to upgrade their software. I think it’s that lack of choice with the new model that leads to the feeling of being locked into something.
Michael, I agree that the new CC model makes one *feel* locked in, but I’m beginning to wonder if the rate of change is such that we might consider “leasing” as a viable alternative. Haven’t seen camera leases yet, though 🙂
I had the same thoughts Eric, when I decided to jump over the wall. We are not only part of the computer industry, our work depends on it, no matter if we decide for CC or remain in the Photoshop and LR upgrading trap. We are already trapped! The only way out would be back to analogue and back to the darkroom.
Shh…don’t tell anybody…but, I still shoot film! But, at this time my post-processing and final output is via the desktop. I still dream of resurrecting my darkroom, though… 🙂 Still have my 10′ Arkay stainless steel sink, two very nice enlargers, and a whole bunch of darkroom stuff.
Best regards,
AlanH
Can I hop over, please? I miss the craft, the excitement, the smell….moving around instead of staring on a computer screen….
Will there be enough space for all of us? If not, don’t tell anybody!
Well some us are much more nostalgic for the analog darkroom than others! I’ll take the digital darkroom any time. 🙂